Of course I refer to the final debate between Bush & Kerry. It was to focus on domestic issues & while being one I thought gun control would not come up. I was wrong.
For the hell of it I'll post the question & both answers in their entirety, then point out the flaws with each.
SCHIEFFER: Mr. President, new question, two minutes.
You said that if Congress would vote to extend the ban on assault weapons, that you'd sign the legislation, but you did nothing to encourage the Congress to extend it. Why not?
BUSH: Actually, I made my intentions -- made my views clear. I did think we ought to extend the assault weapons ban, and was told the fact that the bill was never going to move, because Republicans and Democrats were against the assault weapon ban, people of both parties.
I believe law-abiding citizens ought to be able to own a gun. I believe in background checks at gun shows or anywhere to make sure that guns don't get in the hands of people that shouldn't have them.
But the best way to protect our citizens from guns is to prosecute those who commit crimes with guns. And that's why early in my administration I called the attorney general and the U.S. attorneys and said: Put together a task force all around the country to prosecute those who commit crimes with guns. And the prosecutions are up by about 68 percent -- I believe -- is the number.
Neighborhoods are safer when we crack down on people who commit crimes with guns.
To me, that's the best way to secure America.
SCHIEFFER: Senator?
KERRY: I believe it was a failure of presidential leadership not to reauthorize the assault weapons ban.
I am a hunter. I'm a gun owner. I've been a hunter since I was a kid, 12, 13 years old. And I respect the Second Amendment and I will not tamper with the Second Amendment.
But I'll tell you this. I'm also a former law enforcement officer. I ran one of the largest district attorney's offices in America, one of the ten largest. I put people behind bars for the rest of their life. I've broken up organized crime. I know something about prosecuting.
And most of the law enforcement agencies in America wanted that assault weapons ban. They don't want to go into a drug bust and be facing an AK-47.
I was hunting in Iowa last year with a sheriff from one of the counties there, and he pointed to a house in back of us, and said, "See the house over? We just did a drug bust a week earlier, and the guy we arrested had an AK-47 lying on the bed right beside him."
Because of the president's decision today, law enforcement officers will walk into a place that will be more dangerous. Terrorists can now come into America and go to a gun show and, without even a background check, buy an assault weapon today.
And that's what Osama bin Laden's handbook said, because we captured it in Afghanistan. It encouraged them to do it.
So I believe America's less safe.
If Tom DeLay or someone in the House said to me, "Sorry, we don't have the votes," I'd have said, "Then we're going to have a fight."
And I'd have taken it out to the country and I'd have had every law enforcement officer in the country visit those congressmen. We'd have won what Bill Clinton won.
Now the fisking:
BUSH: "Actually, I made my intentions -- made my views clear. I did think we ought to extend the assault weapons ban, and was told the fact that the bill was never going to move, because Republicans and Democrats were against the assault weapon ban, people of both parties."
That's a bit of an understatement. Not just republicans & democrats, but gun owners. The opposition wasn't confined to congress. In fact it probably could have passed both houses. But the reckoning at the polls in November would have been horrible for incumbents, so they wisely decided to not vote on it. So to say simply that congress didn't want it is to leave out the reason why congress didn't want it: us.
"I believe law-abiding citizens ought to be able to own a gun. I believe in background checks at gun shows or anywhere to make sure that guns don't get in the hands of people that shouldn't have them."
Define "law abiding"? If guns were outlawed for anyone who didn't have 3 trillion dollars in the bank, then one could claim that they believe the law abiding ought to be able to own guns. Doesn't mean a damn thing without elaboration.
Background checks? In other words Bush thinks we should all beg permission from the government to own a gun.
Bush also believes that private property & its disposition should be subject to government approval. He wants to outlaw private transactions that are not pre-approved by the government.
He feels there are people that shouldn't own guns & wants ot take steps to prevent them from acquiring them. Hell, even I believe there are people that shouldn't own guns. But i realize the futility of trying to prevent mere possession. Bush doesn't.
The deeper question though is who does Bush feel shouldn't own firearms? & what's to keep him from including me in that category?
"But the best way to protect our citizens from guns is to prosecute those who commit crimes with guns. And that's why early in my administration I called the attorney general and the U.S. attorneys and said: Put together a task force all around the country to prosecute those who commit crimes with guns. And the prosecutions are up by about 68 percent -- I believe -- is the number."
Define "crime". Most people will think armed robbery. The law thinks mere possession under certain circumstances is a gun crime. The gun crimes Bush is prosecuting are not limited to violent confrontational crime. In fact I'd wager the majority of prosecutions involve mere possession. So much for "keep & bear".
"Neighborhoods are safer when we crack down on people who commit crimes with guns."
Neighborhoods are safer when violent confrontational crime results in the aggressor being shot by his victim. Putting someone in jail for 3 years because he had a piece of metal &/or wood that was too short does not make anyone safer.
"To me, that's the best way to secure America."
I prefer the framers way of securing America: not denying arms to the people.
Ideologically Bush is flawed on the Right to Arms issue. He doesn't want to seem the gun grabber even though his policies involve that (albeit in a way that's socially acceptable to all but the most politically aware gun owners).
He did a decent job of covering his ass though, at least as far as the AWB is concerned. He claimed he supported it (which he did) & that congress wouldn't pass it (thanks to you). It's as close as one can come to having their cake & eating it too. At the very least he should have shut up after the first paragraph. The following paragraphs showed his misunderstanding of the concept of a Right generally as well as the Right to Arms specifically.
The ideal answer would have been:
I pledged to support the AWB in 2000. I have since found out that AWB served no practical function except to facilitate the next, more stringent gun control law. I was bound by a very foolish promise I made during a campaign to sign it if it hit my desk. I'm a man of my word & I would have kept that promise, but luckily the leaders of congress were wiser than I was. They saw the AWB for what it really was: an minor infringement on the 2nd Amendment that paved the way for larger infringements.
Ya see, I thought the AWB dealt with machine guns, & that weapons covered by the AWB were used frequently in crime. Back then I trusted the NY Times. I should've known better.
The AWB didn't affect machine guns at all. In fact the types of guns it affected have been made & sold in this country since 1902. & they have been used in less than 1% of crimes in a given year. The AWB simply did not reduce crime. It did reduce the respect this office showed to the constitution, & for that you have my sincerest apologies. I assure you I'll do my best to keep from committing an error like this in the future.
That would have given him another 4 years. His answer tonight may have garnered a few votes from gun owners, but odds are it didn't do much one way or the other.
KERRY: "I believe it was a failure of presidential leadership not to reauthorize the assault weapons ban."
I believe it was a failure of presidential reasoning & constitutional literacy to pass it in the first damned place.
"I am a hunter. I'm a gun owner. I've been a hunter since I was a kid, 12, 13 years old. And I respect the Second Amendment and I will not tamper with the Second Amendment."
Bullshit. Every gun control bill Kerry voted for sought to tamper with the 2nd Amendment. You don't show respect for a law by pretending you're not trying to gut it while you're trying to gut it.
"But I'll tell you this. I'm also a former law enforcement officer. I ran one of the largest district attorney's offices in America, one of the ten largest. I put people behind bars for the rest of their life. I've broken up organized crime. I know something about prosecuting."
Too bad he doesn't know anything about reading comprehension. Look, Kerry is saying that because he was involved in the profession, he values the convenience of government agents over the Right of the individual citizen.
If Kerry could understand what honest common people were like, he might stand a chance. But his elitist attitude screams form in between every line of his quotes. Even if he saw the light & became an absolutist it wouldn't work because no one would believe him.
"And most of the law enforcement agencies in America wanted that assault weapons ban. They don't want to go into a drug bust and be facing an AK-47."
Bullshit. A fraction of law enforcement agencies supported the AWB. A fraction opposed it. The vast majority took no position at all. Most cops on the beat realized the AB was ineffective at its stated goal.
Now since they don't want to go on a drug bust & face an AK-47, does this mean they'd rather face a Remington 870 12 gauge? First of all Kerry wants to plant the image of machine guns in your mind. Most people think "machine gun" when they hear "AK-47". But the AWB did not involve machine guns. Further if a person was planning on engaging cops then getting a machine gun wouldn't be that much of an issue. The AWB, like most prohibitions, did not deter criminals from acquiring whatever they want. But since it didn’t effect machine guns at all to claim that cops feared AK-47's is misleading as hell. Not only does it make the common person think cops worried about machine guns, but that the ban did something about it.
Course I'd also argue that drug busts are immoral on many levels, hence the fear cops would face could be better eliminated by doing away with drug busts. But that's another issue.
"I was hunting in Iowa last year with a sheriff from one of the counties there, and he pointed to a house in back of us, and said, 'See the house over? We just did a drug bust a week earlier, and the guy we arrested had an AK-47 lying on the bed right beside him."
Unimpressive bullshit. The guy had an AK-47 lying beside him. even if it was a fully automatic AK-47 as opposed to the more common (in this country at least) semi-automatic only AK-47's, it doesn't mean a damn thing. The guy wasn't reaching for it was he? Obviously the cops were not outgunned as the sheriff was casually talking about the drug bust, not the attempted drug bust that cost cops their lives.
It's not about the type of weapon: it's about intent. Actual intent not implied or perceived intent.
"Because of the president's decision today, law enforcement officers will walk into a place that will be more dangerous. Terrorists can now come into America and go to a gun show and, without even a background check, buy an assault weapon today."
Bullshit. Cops are in no more danger today than they were 2 months ago or 12 years ago. Well, provided they don't attempt a no-knock on my house, but I digress.
Kerry decries terrorists being able to buy an "assault weapon" without a background check. I'm pretty pissed that senators are allowed to speak without passing a critical thinking test.
What Kerry wants is to regulate all private transactions (since commercial transactions are already regulated, even at gun shows) involving firearms.
"And that's what Osama bin Laden's handbook said, because we captured it in Afghanistan. It encouraged them to do it."
Osama encouraged people to hijack planes & fly them into buildings. Some people in fact did just that. So let's use Kerry's logic to solve that problem:
Since people can walk into an air show & buy a plane without a background check today, we must close the air show loophole & in addition ban "assault airplanes".
Idiot.
"So I believe America's less safe."
He should believe it's less safe seeing as how he keeps voting for measures that strip away our safety net (i.e. the 2nd Amendment).
"If Tom DeLay or someone in the House said to me, 'Sorry, we don't have the votes,' I'd have said, 'Then we're going to have a fight."
& if it'd had passed the gun owners of this country would have had it. Most incumbents would have lost the support of their gun owning base & people like me would have ignored the AWB as best as possible, hoping we wouldn't have to defend our Rights & freedoms through violent measures.
"And I'd have taken it out to the country and I'd have had every law enforcement officer in the country visit those congressmen. We'd have won what Bill Clinton won."
He'd have taken it to the country, we'd have taken it to the polls &/or the streets. But what is he saying? He'd have cops rough up congressmen till they promised to vote his way?
Kerry is an elitist ass. Not that I think Dubya much better, but at least Dubya gives the appearance of sincerity. I could buy it that Bush is well intentioned but extremely misguided. With Kerry I just think he's an elitist ass.
Kerry's ideal answer: I supported the AWB because I'm an elitist ass who has never read or understood any part of the constitution. Thank you.
Neither one did well. They both failed my litmus test. & both did so long ago. This debate didn't change anything, except to lower my level of optimism that the states may be saved after all. Too bad the third party candidates were excluded. At least then we’d have heard someone speaking the truth.
If Bush or Kerry changed anyone's mind odds are that person was a fence setter leaning towards one or the other anyway. The answers given could only reassure someone that their candidate was where they wanted him to be. No soccer moms will flock to Bush & no gun owners will flock to Kerry.
& no, I'm not voting for either one of those authoritarian assholes.