July 13, 2006

And How

In my post about the family that was murdered in Indiana an entity named "and how" left a rather lengthy comment disagreeing with my thoughts to put it mildly. Fish or Man left a comment taking up for me & I was thinking of letting it be until/unless he got a response. But since it is a comment that disagreed with me & I haven't been writing much of late I'll go ahead & pick on "and how" for a bit.

"You are the biggest insensitive a*hole yet ever to exist. How in the hell could you have written the assumptions you have made (regardless of your illiteracy on the internet embarrassingly enough). You have no absolute f*ing clue how that entire tragedy played out. How in god's name could you victimize this family anymore than you have. You are an idiot and not because your dumbass grandparents allowed you to carry a 12 gauge around while doing your homework (where did you live? On the Gaza Strip? Do you even know what the hell you have written. Let some of us who are actually thinking about this help you out a little bit here."

"and how" should write a book on how to win hearts & minds. From the first sentence I realized that I was beign corrected because someone genuinely cared about my intellectual progress. :)

"First of all, let us return to basic life science (that is, if you did not murder your fellow students or your teacher while you were carrying around your 12 gauge). Have you ever heard of adrenaline? Yes, that's it. It's the chemical which is released in the brain whenever the human body is under threat or attack.

Anyway, when any one is under such threat, the entire cerebral frontal cortex is completely sending off signals throughout the human body causing an individual (yes, based on the uniqueness of that individual) to respond in which ever way that they are wired to respond."

No; a person responds in such an event the way he is trained. If no training in that particular event has been done then a person will either respond like they would in the closest scenario that they have received some sort of training/experience in or they'll get down to acting on the fight/flight/do nothing impulse.

"That means (dumb ass) that they may have been completely thrown off psychologically (yes, this happens too) the moment when this horrendous attack occurred. Have you EVER been a victim of crime? Have you known anyone to have been a victim of crime in your entire shelf life? Well, when you are frightened and thrown off guard, you tend not to think as rationally as you would, let's say, than if this WERE NOT happening to you."

Again, how can I resist the powers of sweet persuasion?

Yes i have been the victim of a crime as have a few people that I've known. & yes it can throw you off. But there's where that whole being prepared thing comes into play. It won't make it less scary or traumatizing, but it can make it more survivable.

"That family was completely caught off guard. Think of the pandamonium and choas that was happening as these two men (I am surprised that you have not gone off the deep end with the race card on this yet as you certainly appear to have such a narrow mind and an ignorant so-called, soul). In the night hours, everyone is caught off guard. Why do you think that most crimes occur in the wee hours or that those men chose such a time to commit this inhumane crime? Because the average person is exhausted after raising (and there were THREE children who were murdered, a FIVE year old was murdered as well."

Which was part of my point - that they were caught off guard. They didn't have a plan to deal with such an event & they probably never considered anything like that happening to them.

But c'mon - the race card? I'm allegedly narrow minded & ignorant among other things but the person who brings this so politely to my attention sees a gun nut & assumes a klansmen is underneath the surface? I'd love to see support for that whole line of reasoning.

& the crime occured in the early/mid evening (by my standards at least). The article I linked to clearly says that the cops were called at 10:15 p.m. I wouldn't exactly call that the wee hours.

& fromt he caps it seems that "and how" thinks I miscounted the number of children murdered & the age of those kids. I mentioned clearly that 4 adults 7 3 children were murdered. Then because of the point I was trying to make I mainly spoke of the 11 year old & 9 year old. But since the point seems to have escaped "and how" I shouldn't be surprised that the details slipped by.

"Go to the Chicago Channel 7 website and tale a look at the victims who were killed). This was a family and when you are raising THREE young boys, the last thing you are thinking of is two a**hole bursting through your front door. Yes, perhaps there should have been more thought into protecting their children and perhaps they should have thought of many things, but they did not. They are dead and all of us, including YOU as so it obviously seems, are scared s***less over this crime which could happen to YOU or anyone else."

So since they didn't think of a home invasion happening to them we should let them rest in peace? Being the soul-less bastard I am I don't think that my words one way or the other will effect the deceased. But they make have some impact on the living. Discussing their lack of planning might actually help someone someday. That way we won't have to be quite as scared as "and how" seems to think we all are.

"All that I have heard for the past twenty years is how many of you cream over the fact that you can still leave your damned doors open.That is all that I have heard as I watch the Discovery Channel or A&E's City Confidential; " Oh, well gee, this community is SO damned safe, well, gee, we can leave our doors WIDE OPEN." And the classic; " Gee, well, I moved away from the 'city' to get away from those horrible people and now I live in the safest neighborhood in the entire friggin' United States." All that I have heard from any windy minded home owner moron is that every one is still leaving their doors and windows open because they do not live around a certain minority or income class."

uh huh. So it seems that racial prejudice is the root of people not taking security seriously? So home owners who move from urban areas are by implication white separatists? I wonder what that flavor of kool-aid tastes like?

"Hello, we do not live in a safe world. There is a such thing as perhaps living in a neighborhood, where, more or less of such crimes occur. But for any of us to be so f***king naive and to think that any place, no matter how well-manicured the lawn or how green the astro-turf or how many police officers guard your neighborhood OR how many minorities are priced out from living around you is, the bottom line is that crime is every where. And I hate it and despise it just as you or anyone does. I am scared too and I am concerned for our family and I care too. But just how many of us truly utilize "Neighborhood Watch"? Do you ONLY call the police when you see a minority visting a friend in your neighborhood or DO you call when you see ANYONE behaving suspiciously around your neighbor's home or property?"

Hmmm methinks I'm seeing a pattern. Fear of crime or the lack thereof is caused by bigotry yet none of us are really safe & we should call the cops often unless we're giving in to our prejudice. I wonder how much of this stems from an indoctrination of leftist ideology & how much stems from a person grappling with their own bigotry?

& note that criticisms of people who don't take their security seriously seems to be okay as long as we're talking about those evil klansmen wannabe's who fled the city to be among their own kind, yet it's deplorable when a lack of planning involves the deceased. They're victims after all & thus sacred. Beyond reproach. I wonder how much of that kool-aid is required in a dry climate as opposed to a humid one?

"We have just booked from a idiot so-called "safe neighborhood" where a group of Filipinos hated all races (and I do mean ALL) who hated any one to call the police because there were so many illegal IMMIGRANTS living in the building and committing OBVIOUS crimes in a senior/ disability complex. There was SO damned much crime in this otherwise "idyllic" setting that the property manager hated us for utilizing "neighborhood watch" because we happened to have cared about our community. Put it to you this way (NEVER LIVE IN DALY CITY, CALIFORNIA around anyone named [Name Redacted -ed] who lives in [Address redacted - ed] and has openly said that he hates Caucasians and will find any way to victimize or allow crime like this home invasion to occur in YOUR home if you are CAUCASIAN. "

I usually don't edit comments but something struck me as wrong about this person naming someone & listing their address.

But we have a person who has lived at some point in Cali. I'm starting to recognize the effects of a certain brand of kool-aid. Note the emphasis on calling the cops (which is not a bad thing in & of itself). This is just supposition but I'm wondering how many times "and how" called the cops over something that he didn't think someone else should be doing yet caused no harm to anyone? How many times did he/she opt to talk with the person before calling the cops over a non-emergency matter?

"There are truly evil people in this world (i.e. some neighbors)and who knows if some jerk in this poor family's neighborhood who FAILED to protect this family as well. I would just as soon blame their neighbors than to blame the dead people for not reacting fast enough."

It takes a village to keep a family safe?

"How many of us ignore or are such jerks to one another not to even keep an eye out for one another regardless of race or skin color. Did you know that this family was Hispanic, pal? What were the chances of this family ever being protected by THEIR neighbors? Look how CARELESS we are when everyone conducts their daily living activities. The same idiots count their damned money in the street after coming out of a bank. We'd rather spend $450.00 on a damned X-Box or the latest cell phone or DVD, RATHER, than to INVEST in home security systems."

Somehow I doubt "and how" really considers me a pal. But it all seems to come back to the race thing. & there's a hint of our society being ground in evil capitalism. I wonder if there's a way to blame Wal-Mart?

"Look how we are so quick to call others "paranoid" or "oversensitive" when anyone tries to alert to you that they are being harassed or stalked? What do we say? "Oh don't worry about it, you'll be just fine. You worry too much." Bull S***t!!"

Uh huh.

"Perhaps ALL of us had better begin looking out for ONE another instead of writing mean and assumptive articles with opinionated insensitivity about dead families who were screaming and victimized in the final twenty minutes of their lives. Perhaps we need to give a damn a bit more about one another, rather than to react to our own fears and belittle dead children for not standing up for themselves."

A collective response to an individual's safety? "I am my brother's family's keeper", etc. I always viewed personal responsibility as, well, ya know, personal. It'd be nice if we were all watching each other's backs but the bottom line is that I am responsible for my safety. You are responsible for yours. Blaming society because a family got caught off guard is not going to address the problem or provide any workable solutions.

& when did I belittle anyone? Well other than the fact that I tried to point out that the family didn't have a plan to deal with the event in question? My point was that the family had no plan even though they were capable of having one & that at least one of the kids could have been a useful part of that plan. My criticism was directed towards the adults, not towards a kid who I thought should have saved up & went to Gunsite on his own.

"You are correct about one thing and that is " YOU DO NOT KNOW JACK S*** of what happened to this family in the last minutes of their lives!! What in the hell do you know about what they tried to do? Did you stop to think that these killers preplanned this invasion to the point of practicing this horrible thing and preparing every move to make sure that any of them would live to see this through?

Did you ever stop to ponder how much planning had gone into harming and robbing these people? Did it further ever occur to YOU that perhaps they may have been stalked before this atrocity occurred? Perhaps they were trying to alert others that strange things had been happening to them. Maybe the children tried to tell another adult that they may have seen something odd take place in the weeks before their deaths."

Sigh. No I don't think the murderers went through practice home invasions to make sure they had their routine down. we're not talking about a SEAL team carrying out a mission. We're talking about a few teen aged thugs who ended up shooting their victims. Criminals of this type usually aren't that coordinated.

What throws a lot of people is that such brutality can be carried out so quickly. They assume that it's part of a plan when in reality it's probably just the way events unfolded. In other words they didn't do what they did because they planned it. They did what they did because they were unopposed & had the will to do it. I doubt they walked in the house planning to kill the whole family. I don't doubt that they were willing to kill the whole family.

& they may have been stalked. Then again they might not have been. But since the subject keeps coming up I'm thinking there's some projection going on.

"Our society cares more about our pets than we care about people. We have grown so cold toward innocent victims or other law-abiding decent people (regardless the race) that we cannot give a flying f*** about each other long enough for twenty seconds to pay attention to the signs. We become so busy with meaningless chores and ignorant prejudices and it is all about me, me, me. All that you have said is about what YOU would do. WHO cares about what you would do. Why don't you have a heart about what all of us should do. You cannot carry a f***king 12 gauge around the city or on a bus, airplane or any mode of transport. You cannot carry a weapon full of bullets legally without a FOID card or if you are a law-enforcement officer. It is ridiculous that even you had to carry a weapon like that at your age. You could have shot your self in the "you-know-where". You couldn't have completely have known the entire concept or responsibility of a weapon like that. MOST adults do not know the ramifications of such a weapon."

Well a good pet is hard to find but there are people everywhere. / sarcasm

What the hell does love of pets have to do with things? & again we have the collectivist rant about looking out for each other. As nice as it would be there are nto always signs that you or anyone else can pick up on.

& of course i discuss what I would do or what I think should be done. It's my blog. Have a heart about what everyone else should do? If I threw in "it's for the children" would that have established that I have something pumping blood?

& who says you can't carry a 12 gauge? Most cities ban firearms on public transportation. You can carry a firearm on a plane, although it must be in checked baggage. But few places in America prevent you walking around with a firearm.

But "and how" isn't living in America. From the FOID mention I'd say it was Illinois. From Cali to Illinois & he/she's going to tell me what can or can't be done with a firearm? Or that unless I have an unconstitutional bit of licensing or I'm a cop that I can't carry? That's part fo the harm in living in one of those states - the law becomes culturally accepted.

But yes - 12 years old is too young to have to carry a 12 gauge around. It's also too young to have to have the flu, or broken legs or any number of things. But because we feel it's interupting a perfectly good childhood doesn't mean it's not necessary to go through at times.

& yes I could have shot myself. But fortunately I grew up around firearms & was taught respect for them. Amazing what a little training will do isn't it? As a result my you-know-what is intact thankyeeverymuch.

& no; I didn't know all the ramifications of weilding a shotgun when I was 12. I did know that if I messed up someone could be killed. I also knew that if I didn't have that 12 on my lap my grandfather might have been hurt or killed. Luckily its deterrent effect worked so I didn't have to make any tough decisions, but if raised right a 12 year old is capable of enough discernment to make a tough decision.

"I am not saying that you DID not know how to use your 12 gauge (any fool can pull a trigger, even a 3 year old can do that), however, you were not fully knowledgeable (at that time in your puberty stages)about the consequences of such a weapon, and you could not and I did not have to witness you doing so because 12 year olds are NOT entirely designed mentally at that age to truly and fully appreciate the true consequences of anything and this is NOT a dig against YOU or your abilities at all, however, it is a FACT of life that children should NOT be sporting a 12 gauge while doing homework or sitting in a truck. You could have accidentally killed someone including yourself."

Again it doesn't require a degree in a liberal art to be able to tell right from wrong & to be thoughtful about one's actions. I wasn't capable of writing a thesis on it but I was capable of understanding that if I made an error someone would be hurt or killed that shouldn't be. So I was careful. I also understood that if I did what I was supposed to do my grandfather wouldn't get beat up again. It's really not rocket science.

& I know it's possible but how does a 12 year old accidentally kill himself with a double barrel shotgun? I'm curious cause the thing was almost as tall as I was at the time.

But no it is not a FACT that kids shouldn't bear arms. It's an opinion. One based on societal norms. 100 years back no one would have batted an eye at a kid walking through the woods with a long gun. Back then a kid being able to protect himself wasn't viewed as some kind of child abuse. But what can you expect from a person who lives in Illinois?

"NO one is fully and truly trained (with the unique exception of law-enforcement and the military ONLY) to really know how to appreciate a weapon of that magnitude and of any sort.And you would have needed more than "grandpa" or your local gun world (or whoever taught you) to teach you how to use such a weapon. If it only took grandpa to teach you, then, what would be the purpose of regulated and certified training, much less to a 12-year-old and I am pretty certain that you were not professionally trained nor had a FOID Card to use that 12 gauge at that age."

Sigh. Only the cops & soldiers...

The purpose of regulated & certfied training in most instances is two fold. It's a discouragement to owning arms & it establishes a system of registration.

Bu tno I didn;t have an FOID card. I never will have an FOID card. Why? well aside from the concept being a bitch slap to a fundamental Right I don't live & will never live in a state which requires such foolishness.

This is very important for "and how" to understand - the world is not Illinois. Outside Illnois in a country we like to call America they don't usually make you grovel for permission & pay a bribe in order to possess a constitutionally protected item.

But you'd be surprised how many "grandpa's" give better training than the sacred police acedemies that you revere so. Most of the best & safets shooters in the world are not cops or soldiers, but mere civilians who actually enjoy shooting & therefore practice often.

"As I have said, you need more than family
members to teach you how to use such a weapon. And perhaps it was that you really needed to keep robbers away and I am very sorry that you had to grow up in that way because it is indicative that your childhood was not very rewarding and more or less miserable like the children in the Middle East who carry assault weapons because they live in the middle of a war zone and their parents are dead and they are the only ones to protect their families."

That depends entirely on the family now doesn't it?

& I'm not sorry I grew up that way. Not that I liked living in a neighborhood where old men get beat up but I had good parenting. I didn't have the idealistic childhood that the leftists preach about so much. I had something better - a childhood where I was allowed & encouraged to grow up. I learned at an early age that personal responsibility & responsibility for family are important. I also learned that the world is a dangerous place, with or without people. This will give vapor lock to those who want to raise their kids in true leftist fashion but I never blindly walked into a dangerous situation because I knew the world wasn't there just for me.

"You questioned the ability of this family's savvy to protect each other; well, how about yours? Where were the rest of your family members to help to raise you? You questioned their ability to help themselves? And you weren't even there. SO how do you know what had taken place or if the family was sabotaged in some other way."

My family was all around. & we all did a prety decent job of protecting each other. The kids are all alive & not in prison so I'd say that means mission accomplished to some degree.

But I said a time or two that I wasn't there & was only speculating based on what I had read. & from what I had read 4 adults & two kids who arguably were of age to participate in family defense were overpowered by two thugs. That's not sabotage; that's lack of planning & reaction.

"All that I am saying is that none of us really know what happened that night. But all that we do know that this is very scary and very, very sad that these human beings who were once with us as human beings on this earth this time last year and now they are gone forever and their existing loved ones (the mother's parents, the father's parents, the grandparents to their children, their friends and co-workers) will re-live this awful, awful tragedy again and again, on the news (who will report this thing to NO ends) and during the trial (when they catch these guys) and just every where."

Yes it is very sad. To me it's worse because it might not have turned out this way if security was taken more seriously.

"We cannot judge how others should have handled a thing like this. Death is often quick and there is no time to think. The only second thing that I agree with you on is to create a plan of protection should this happen to any of us AND call the police if your neighbors or friends ALERT YOU that something is wrong or if they are scared or nervous. Chances are there were signs that others did not listen to or were carelessly un-noticed while their neighbors are so overly concerned with their material goods or so busy gossiping and yakking about unimportant or minor things. We live in an unsafe world and yet many of us behave as if we are so guarded and so protected. We do not take any warnings serious anymore and so many of the talk shows discuss this issue of home invasion (especially Montel Williams)."

The hell we can't judge how this should have been handled. I don't buy into the victim-as-unquestionable bs that "and how" seems to have. By looking at other people's mistakes we can learn. In order to figure out what if any mistakes were made we have to judge those actions.

But again it comes back to a colectivist mentality. It's not an indictment against society that you're too busy hanging out with your kids that you don't see someone run around the back on your neighbors house. That's life. Ideally a neighbor should try to help in some way, be it calling the cops or calling you but it's not a requirement. You are responsible for your safety. I'm responsible for mine. Assitance is welcome but not required.

"Instead of watching idiot whining Dr. Phil or Will and Grace reruns, why don't we start watching programs like "It Takes a Thief" on the Discovery Channel (instead of American Chopper and Biker World). We are so creaming over Harley Davidson Motor Bikes (which cost thousands of dollars to own and maintain) that we will not even invest in ourselves or our children in better safety habits and alarm systems and live more alert and aware existences. Many of us are so dumb and ignorant that we can't take our own lives or the lives of others seriously enough to pay attention to Identity Theft and talking aloud about where we live or stuffing our ears with moronic I-Tunes and downloading ringer tones. Many of us still live in Wonderland and are worried too much about stupid smokers and the color or our hair."

Sigh. If only discovery channel had a show dealing with home invasions we'd all be much better off?

& being a "stupid smoker" I get the strange feeling that part of "and how's" neighborhood watch ideal would involve calling the cops on anyone taking a smoke with 1,000 feet of a public sidewalk.

"We are an Neanderthal society sometimes. We lack the ability to watch each other and ourselves. We brag and buy the largest SUVs and wonder why someone is stalking us over our material junk because we are so damned flashy and want to show off our 1000.00 whatever crap. We are so stupid and we carry weapons and do not know how or when to use them. We will shoot our loved ones before we shoot a robber or some maniac jerk."

There's just too much idiotry involved in that paragraph. I think it pretty much fisks itself.

"And whew, yes there is an end to this but you started this and others will as well, and lastly many of us including you write the meanest and most insensitive crap. You would not know what to do if you had your drawers around your ankles and a group of criminals smashed your bathroom window in the middle of your bowel movement. You would not know what to do if you were in the middle of sleeping and suddenly you are surrounded by a group of practiced and trained jerks while YOUR children and wife are sleeping."

Actually I would know what to do, or have a good idea of what to do. That comes from actually thinking about such scenarios & trying to learn from other folks who have went through such scenarios.

But the practiced & trained criminal thing is - well it's entirely posisble, but usually only the criminals with badges are rehearsed in their actions. Most thugs have a rough plan that may or may not be based on past crimes. But their plan isn't half as important as yours.

"You certainly could not grab the rifle or 12 gauge fast enough yourself. You have NO clue what happened to this family or any one else you decide to bash after they are dead or have been victimized. And you know the scary thing is that your writing is the way that these criminals behaved; "Cold and unfeeling"."

I certainly could grab something fast enough. Most people can if they put a little thought into things.

& cold & unfeeling is appropriate when dealing with or talking about folks who want to kill you (or who simply would kill you) over a robbery. I don't think i ever shed a tear for someone who was killed int he process of a home invasion. I don't think anyone else ever should feel sorrow for such folks. They made their own decision & they shouldn't get sympathy. Their actions are harmful & if not stopped they'd hurt folks who didn't ask for such troubles. At times it's necessary to be cold & unfeeling. In the middle of or after a home invasion is one of those times.

"Think about what YOU say. Sure some things can be avoided but not all things and all of us have been victimized at one time or another and try to remember how you or someone YOU loved felt. Dehumanized or dead. What if a member of that family read what you wrote? When editorializing, stick to the facts and offer sound advice."

I was sticking to the facts as I knew them fromt he article. I offered sound advice. Perhaps "and how" meant "more sensitive to the feelings of all concerned" advice. It might upset a family member of the deceased to read what I wrote (though I don't think I was as harsh as "and how" does) but if it helps them think about their own security then that's a plus.

It was a brutal crime & I never disparaged the victims. I merely pointed out that it seemed that there was no plan or much thought given to such a situation. I'd wager that a lot of folks don't give much or enough thought to home invasions. & it's not that common in America so it's understandable. But it's plausible that if some thought had been given then it might not have ended up like it did.

The thugs who pulled the trigger are responsible for the crime. I don't want any of the blame taken from them. I'm merely saying that everyone should have some sort of idea of what they'd do if someone busted in throuh their door.

"Research your information first before saying crude things as you have written. All of us have the right to bear arms (except criminals and the unstable or abusive, hair trigger, angry road rage people). We need to protect ourselves and each other (no argument there)."

Sigh. Just sigh.

"As for children carrying 12 gauges, it really depends on the situation and the maturity level of the child. YES, they should be trained HOW to survive and keep each other alive as a family and as a community. But not all children should carrying firearms without the proper training and if they are not mentally stable (remember Columbine?) I am totally for the NRA, they are not against people, and they are FOR the right to bear arms RESPONSIBLY. I am for that and people can be complete butt heads and not all individuals should pack heat (like those evil men who murdered this family.)"

The murderers at Columbine weren't mentally unstable. They were evil. There's a difference.

"NEXT TIME.....PLEASE THINK, THINK, AND THINK!! Its a free country and you can say whatever you want, however, please be responsible for what you say (because it was a mean thing to write and you sounded as heartless as the killers) as there are consequences and anything of what I said is justifiable and from experience and from police officers and victims of crime and for warning (as in [Name Redacted - ed], the jerk that I mentioned 20 pages ago), because he is a very dangerous and violent person and most of you need to know that before placing your relatives in an Independent Living arrangement. I mentioned his name the way we have sexual predators on-line to protect the public."

I'd say I've done my pennance for not posting much lately. (& I thought I was a long winded bastard!)

I'm stil not entirely sure how I was so cold & heartless towards the victims unless it is that I dared question their actions or lack thereof. the sacred victim status is something I've observed before but never quite to this degree (if that is the cause of the accusations).

Thanks to Fish or Man for the rather succinct rebuttal.

Posted by Publicola at July 13, 2006 02:28 PM | TrackBack

Yep, FOID card. S/he must be living here in Illinois under the wonderful and most benevolent leadership of His Highness Richard "Dick" Daley & Company!

To suggest that only police and military personnel are well-enough trained to carry a firearm falls right in line with the liberal message in Illinois -- No (hand)guns for the general public. They're too stupid to understand how to use a GUN!

The irony of this line of BS is that the same gangbanger who can't work the idiot-proof cash register at McDonald's has the "intelligence" to fire an AK-47 and kill anybody in his crossfire, but us working class, blue collar / country boys / white collar professionals aren't fit to responsibly carry a firearm in the eyes of the liberal dictators of Illinois...

We do (believe it or not) have a wide range of experience and opinions on the subject of gun control here in Illinois (even in this rather "liberal" county). I met a local cop, on a boy scout tour of the police station, who said he locks up his weapon as soon as he gets home and that he really would rather not carry a gun at all.

On the other hand, a recently retired firearms instructor (at the Police Training Institute) lives in the county and he was an IDPA champion several times, won the International Revolver Championships several times and was picked as one of American Handgunner Magazines' Top 100 Pistolsmiths too.

I don't mind so much the nominal tax associated with the FOID card crap. It's the lack of any concealed carry which pisses me off. Let people complete an NRA training session and get a CCW permit!!


Posted by: 6pence at July 19, 2006 08:20 AM