June 06, 2006

Some Thoughts On The Indiana Slayings

You've probably already heard about the multiple murder of a family in Indiana.

Say Uncle has said that the "assault weapons" push could begin again because of this incident. Countertop has called BS on the media's fearmongering vis a vis "assault weapons". Heartless Libertarian speculates that the weapon or weapons used may not have been "assault weapons" after all.

Just about any gun nut will not be shocked if the anti-gun crowd uses this tragedy for as much as they can. Pushing for a new, harsher "assault weapons" ban would seem more feasible if it's proven that the family was murdered with an "assault weapon" that would have been untouched by the recently expired AWB. But there's something that troubles me even more...

The three long guns that Heartless Libertarian points to as being taken from the crime scene very well could have been the murder weapons. Of course that'd simplify the problems of using this incident as an appeal to re-enact an AWB but there's another reason, perhaps a more important one that I'm hoping those were in fact the instruments of this murder.

If they weren't then we have 4 adults who let themselves & three children be murdered despite having arms suitable for defense.

I have no idea what went on inside the house & I don't mean to seem like I have all the answers. But it would seem to me, given the limited amount that I know, that at least one of the adults could have attempted to reach one of the long guns.

Contrast that with Thomas Autry. Faced with 4 teen agers, at least two of which were armed he drove them off with a pocket knife, killing one & seriously injuring another.

4 attackers, one armed with a shotgun & another armed with a pistol were fended off by a determined person with a pocket knife. Yet 4 adults in their own damn home couldn't make their way past 2 attackers to retrieve their long guns.

It could have been the situation; the two murdering thugs could have entered the home & cornered all the adults in the same room. That's very possible. But the children were found in another room & one of them was 11. Another child was 9.

11 years old is pretty damned young. Much too young to die. The same could be said about 9 years old. Most people would agree that putting a 9 or 11 year old in a position to make life & death decisions is not the best course of action. Then again they found themselves in just that sort of situation despite their parents' best wishes.

If one of those older kids could have found their way to a long gun then maybe, just maybe this would have had a happier outcome. Sure I'd put my money on a hardened thug against an 11 year old but maybe, just maybe the 11 year old (or 9 year old for that matter) could have gotten the drop on the bad guys.

(For the record when I was 12 or so I was siittng in the back of my grandfather's grocery/convenience store with an L.C. Smith SxS 12 gauge across my lap as I did my homework to deter the robbers. The robbing community had realized that a 70+ year old man was an easy target & he was getting hit quite often until I started sitting in the back with the shotgun. For some reason after that they didn't figure it was such an easy proposition.)

What seems tragic to me (beneath of course the loss of life) is that 4 adults & 2 kids who may have been old & responsible enough to defend themselves didn't seem to attempt that. Again I could be very wrong & some struggle was made but from everything I've seen it doesn't look that way.

So if the family did own the long guns then why did no one try to use them against their attackers? Were they locked up with the ammunition being locked up in another location as the anti-gunners (& most .gov's) recommend? Was there no chance to slip by one of the thugs? Did they all think if they just complied that the thugs would let them live? Or did they simply not have the training or motivation to use those long guns in a defensive capacity?

I don't have any answers. I can speculate (as I have been doing) based upon the little I know but that's not nearly concrete enough to know what did in fact happen inside that house.

What I can say is that it makes a great deal of sense to teach your kids very early how to use a firearm. I'm not saying turn them into Tactical Tommys by age 12 but showing them the basics as well as where the arms are kept may come in handy one day when for some reason you can't get to them. In general it'll help them learn responsibility & possibly keep them from trouble when you're not around (say for instance if they're at a friends house & the friend decides to start playing with a handgun they'll know to tell him to stop &/or leave in short order). But in the extreme & very very rare instances where they may have to defend themselves it's much better for them to have an idea of what they're doing & why instead of relying on a thugs' mercy.

The problem that I see is not one of equipment. That double barrel would have been just as effective as an AR (actually probably a bit moreso) if someone had the determination to use it. The problem is mindset & training.

Most people lock their doors & windows when they go to sleep & don't worry one bit about a home invasion type crime. & statistically they've got a good chance of never having to deal with that. But odds don't mean anything when you're the "1" in the ratio.

Not many people have a fire escape plan. They just assume that running for the nearest door or window is good enough. So it's not surprising that few folks have any sort of plan to deal with a home invasion. At the most you'll have a minority of adults who just assume they can reach their long gun in the bedroom closet before anyone can bust through the door.

Some sort of plan, even if poorly conceived & carried out might have helped out this family in Indiana. It certainly couldn't have made things worse. Especially one that involved the 11 year old & 9 year old might have turned the tide in the family's favor.

But to most folks, even gun nuts the idea of teaching an 11 year old (let alone a 9 year old) to use deadly force to defend themselves &/or their home is almost unthinkable. "Too young" would inevitably come up as a justification to prevent any such discussion, let alone training with the kid. & the parents who think that way do have the kids' interests at heart. They simply don't want to thrust such an adult responsibility on a child. Hell, most adults don't want to take such responsibility themselves.

Sadly just because a child is too young in a parent's view to learn how to wield a firearm does not mean they're too young to be shot.

The thing we should all learn from this very tragic incident is that as adults we must do everything to protect out family. Relying on the mercy of thugs is not one of them. In the event we fail to heft this burden ourselves it's a good idea to teach the kids & others to fend for themselves. Escape would be a good option, but it should never be assumed that your kid will not be in a position where defense is not necessary. In fact it may come down to your kid defending himself or being hurt, even killed.

Again the odds are very very very small that you will ever have to deal with a home invasion, much less one where your life & your family's lives are in danger. But it never hurts to have a plan just in case.

Posted by Publicola at June 6, 2006 09:45 PM | TrackBack

You are the biggest insensitive a*hole yet ever to exist. How in the hell could you have written the assumptions you have made (regardless of your illiteracy on the internet embarrassingly enough). You have no absolute f*ing clue how that entire tragedy played out. How in god's name could you victimize this family anymore than you have. You are an idiot and not because your dumbass grandparents allowed you to carry a 12 gauge around while doing your homework (where did you live? On the Gaza Strip? Do you even know what the hell you have written. Let some of us who are actually thinking about this help you out a little bit here.

First of all, let us return to basic life science (that is, if you did not murder your fellow students or your teacher while you were carrying around your 12 gauge). Have you ever heard of adrenaline? Yes, that's it. It's the chemical which is released in the brain whenever the human body is under threat or attack.

Anyway, when any one is under such threat, the entire cerebral frontal cortex is completely sending off signals throughout the human body causing an individual (yes, based on the uniqueness of that individual) to respond in which ever way that they are wired to respond.

That means (dumb ass) that they may have been completely thrown off psychologically (yes, this happens too) the moment when this horrendous attack occurred. Have you EVER been a victim of crime? Have you known anyone to have been a victim of crime in your entire shelf life? Well, when you are frightened and thrown off guard, you tend not to think as rationally as you would, let's say, than if this WERE NOT happening to you.

That family was completely caught off guard. Think of the pandamonium and choas that was happening as these two men (I am surprised that you have not gone off the deep end with the race card on this yet as you certainly appear to have such a narrow mind and an ignorant so-called, soul). In the night hours, everyone is caught off guard. Why do you think that most crimes occur in the wee hours or that those men chose such a time to commit this inhumane crime? Because the average person is exhausted after raising (and there were THREE children who were murdered, a FIVE year old was murdered as well.

Go to the Chicago Channel 7 website and tale a look at the victims who were killed). This was a family and when you are raising THREE young boys, the last thing you are thinking of is two a**hole bursting through your front door. Yes, perhaps there should have been more thought into protecting their children and perhaps they should have thought of many things, but they did not. They are dead and all of us, including YOU as so it obviously seems, are scared s***less over this crime which could happen to YOU or anyone else.

All that I have heard for the past twenty years is how many of you cream over the fact that you can still leave your damned doors open.That is all that I have heard as I watch the Discovery Channel or A&E's City Confidential; " Oh, well gee, this community is SO damned safe, well, gee, we can leave our doors WIDE OPEN." And the classic; " Gee, well, I moved away from the 'city' to get away from those horrible people and now I live in the safest neighborhood in the entire friggin' United States." All that I have heard from any windy minded home owner moron is that every one is still leaving their doors and windows open because they do not live around a certain minority or income class.

Hello, we do not live in a safe world. There is a such thing as perhaps living in a neighborhood, where, more or less of such crimes occur. But for any of us to be so f***king naive and to think that any place, no matter how well-manicured the lawn or how green the astro-turf or how many police officers guard your neighborhood OR how many minorities are priced out from living around you is, the bottom line is that crime is every where. And I hate it and despise it just as you or anyone does. I am scared too and I am concerned for our family and I care too. But just how many of us truly utilize "Neighborhood Watch"? Do you ONLY call the police when you see a minority visting a friend in your neighborhood or DO you call when you see ANYONE behaving suspiciously around your neighbor's home or property?

We have just booked from a idiot so-called "safe neighborhood" where a group of Filipinos hated all races (and I do mean ALL) who hated any one to call the police because there were so many illegal IMMIGRANTS living in the building and committing OBVIOUS crimes in a senior/ disability complex. There was SO damned much crime in this otherwise "idyllic" setting that the property manager hated us for utilizing "neighborhood watch" because we happened to have cared about our community. Put it to you this way (NEVER LIVE IN DALY CITY, CALIFORNIA around anyone named [Name Redacted -ed] who lives in [Address redacted - ed] and has openly said that he hates Caucasians and will find any way to victimize or allow crime like this home invasion to occur in YOUR home if you are CAUCASIAN.

There are truly evil people in this world (i.e. some neighbors)and who knows if some jerk in this poor family's neighborhood who FAILED to protect this family as well. I would just as soon blame their neighbors than to blame the dead people for not reacting fast enough.

How many of us ignore or are such jerks to one another not to even keep an eye out for one another regardless of race or skin color. Did you know that this family was Hispanic, pal? What were the chances of this family ever being protected by THEIR neighbors? Look how CARELESS we are when everyone conducts their daily living activities. The same idiots count their damned money in the street after coming out of a bank. We'd rather spend $450.00 on a damned X-Box or the latest cell phone or DVD, RATHER, than to INVEST in home security systems.

Look how we are so quick to call others "paranoid" or "oversensitive" when anyone tries to alert to you that they are being harassed or stalked? What do we say? "Oh don't worry about it, you'll be just fine. You worry too much." Bull S***t!!

Perhaps ALL of us had better begin looking out for ONE another instead of writing mean and assumptive articles with opinionated insensitivity about dead families who were screaming and victimized in the final twenty minutes of their lives. Perhaps we need to give a damn a bit more about one another, rather than to react to our own fears and belittle dead children for not standing up for themselves.

You are correct about one thing and that is " YOU DO NOT KNOW JACK S*** of what happened to this family in the last minutes of their lives!! What in the hell do you know about what they tried to do? Did you stop to think that these killers preplanned this invasion to the point of practicing this horrible thing and preparing every move to make sure that any of them would live to see this through?

Did you ever stop to ponder how much planning had gone into harming and robbing these people? Did it further ever occur to YOU that perhaps they may have been stalked before this atrocity occurred? Perhaps they were trying to alert others that strange things had been happening to them. Maybe the children tried to tell another adult that they may have seen something odd take place in the weeks before their deaths.

Our society cares more about our pets than we care about people. We have grown so cold toward innocent victims or other law-abiding decent people (regardless the race) that we cannot give a flying f*** about each other long enough for twenty seconds to pay attention to the signs. We become so busy with meaningless chores and ignorant prejudices and it is all about me, me, me. All that you have said is about what YOU would do. WHO cares about what you would do. Why don't you have a heart about what all of us should do. You cannot carry a f***king 12 gauge around the city or on a bus, airplane or any mode of transport. You cannot carry a weapon full of bullets legally without a FOID card or if you are a law-enforcement officer. It is ridiculous that even you had to carry a weapon like that at your age. You could have shot your self in the "you-know-where". You couldn't have completely have known the entire concept or responsibility of a weapon like that. MOST adults do not know the ramifications of such a weapon.

I am not saying that you DID not know how to use your 12 gauge (any fool can pull a trigger, even a 3 year old can do that), however, you were not fully knowledgeable (at that time in your puberty stages)about the consequences of such a weapon, and you could not and I did not have to witness you doing so because 12 year olds are NOT entirely designed mentally at that age to truly and fully appreciate the true consequences of anything and this is NOT a dig against YOU or your abilities at all, however, it is a FACT of life that children should NOT be sporting a 12 gauge while doing homework or sitting in a truck. You could have accidentally killed someone including yourself.

NO one is fully and truly trained (with the unique exception of law-enforcement and the military ONLY) to really know how to appreciate a weapon of that magnitude and of any sort.And you would have needed more than "grandpa" or your local gun world (or whoever taught you) to teach you how to use such a weapon. If it only took grandpa to teach you, then, what would be the purpose of regulated and certified training, much less to a 12-year-old and I am pretty certain that you were not professionally trained nor had a FOID Card to use that 12 gauge at that age.

As I have said, you need more than family
members to teach you how to use such a weapon. And perhaps it was that you really needed to keep robbers away and I am very sorry that you had to grow up in that way because it is indicative that your childhood was not very rewarding and more or less miserable like the children in the Middle East who carry assault weapons because they live in the middle of a war zone and their parents are dead and they are the only ones to protect their families.

You questioned the ability of this family's savvy to protect each other; well, how about yours? Where were the rest of your family members to help to raise you? You questioned their ability to help themselves? And you weren't even there. SO how do you know what had taken place or if the family was sabotaged in some other way.

All that I am saying is that none of us really know what happened that night. But all that we do know that this is very scary and very, very sad that these human beings who were once with us as human beings on this earth this time last year and now they are gone forever and their existing loved ones (the mother's parents, the father's parents, the grandparents to their children, their friends and co-workers) will re-live this awful, awful tragedy again and again, on the news (who will report this thing to NO ends) and during the trial (when they catch these guys) and just every where.

We cannot judge how others should have handled a thing like this. Death is often quick and there is no time to think. The only second thing that I agree with you on is to create a plan of protection should this happen to any of us AND call the police if your neighbors or friends ALERT YOU that something is wrong or if they are scared or nervous. Chances are there were signs that others did not listen to or were carelessly un-noticed while their neighbors are so overly concerned with their material goods or so busy gossiping and yakking about unimportant or minor things. We live in an unsafe world and yet many of us behave as if we are so guarded and so protected. We do not take any warnings serious anymore and so many of the talk shows discuss this issue of home invasion (especially Montel Williams).

Instead of watching idiot whining Dr. Phil or Will and Grace reruns, why don't we start watching programs like "It Takes a Thief" on the Discovery Channel (instead of American Chopper and Biker World). We are so creaming over Harley Davidson Motor Bikes (which cost thousands of dollars to own and maintain) that we will not even invest in ourselves or our children in better safety habits and alarm systems and live more alert and aware existences. Many of us are so dumb and ignorant that we can't take our own lives or the lives of others seriously enough to pay attention to Identity Theft and talking aloud about where we live or stuffing our ears with moronic I-Tunes and downloading ringer tones. Many of us still live in Wonderland and are worried too much about stupid smokers and the color or our hair.

We are an Neanderthal society sometimes. We lack the ability to watch each other and ourselves. We brag and buy the largest SUVs and wonder why someone is stalking us over our material junk because we are so damned flashy and want to show off our 1000.00 whatever crap. We are so stupid and we carry weapons and do not know how or when to use them. We will shoot our loved ones before we shoot a robber or some maniac jerk.

And whew, yes there is an end to this but you started this and others will as well, and lastly many of us including you write the meanest and most insensitive crap. You would not know what to do if you had your drawers around your ankles and a group of criminals smashed your bathroom window in the middle of your bowel movement. You would not know what to do if you were in the middle of sleeping and suddenly you are surrounded by a group of practiced and trained jerks while YOUR children and wife are sleeping.

You certainly could not grab the rifle or 12 gauge fast enough yourself. You have NO clue what happened to this family or any one else you decide to bash after they are dead or have been victimized. And you know the scary thing is that your writing is the way that these criminals behaved; "Cold and unfeeling".

Think about what YOU say. Sure some things can be avoided but not all things and all of us have been victimized at one time or another and try to remember how you or someone YOU loved felt. Dehumanized or dead. What if a member of that family read what you wrote? When editorializing, stick to the facts and offer sound advice.

Research your information first before saying crude things as you have written. All of us have the right to bear arms (except criminals and the unstable or abusive, hair trigger, angry road rage people). We need to protect ourselves and each other (no argument there).

As for children carrying 12 gauges, it really depends on the situation and the maturity level of the child. YES, they should be trained HOW to survive and keep each other alive as a family and as a community. But not all children should carrying firearms without the proper training and if they are not mentally stable (remember Columbine?) I am totally for the NRA, they are not against people, and they are FOR the right to bear arms RESPONSIBLY. I am for that and people can be complete butt heads and not all individuals should pack heat (like those evil men who murdered this family.)

NEXT TIME.....PLEASE THINK, THINK, AND THINK!! Its a free country and you can say whatever you want, however, please be responsible for what you say (because it was a mean thing to write and you sounded as heartless as the killers) as there are consequences and anything of what I said is justifiable and from experience and from police officers and victims of crime and for warning (as in [Name Redacted - ed], the jerk that I mentioned 20 pages ago), because he is a very dangerous and violent person and most of you need to know that before placing your relatives in an Independent Living arrangement. I mentioned his name the way we have sexual predators on-line to protect the public.

Posted by: and how at June 16, 2006 01:47 AM

Your statement: "NO one is fully and truly trained (with the unique exception of law-enforcement and the military ONLY) to really know how to appreciate a weapon of that magnitude..."

I can't believe I read this much of your crap.

This magnitude you believe that only "the only ones" possess just happens to be simply enough that the entire animal kingdon understands. Survival instinct; kill or be killed. It isn't pie in the sky wishing for safer neighborhoods or blaming the evil criminals in society. It is the majority of good people who continue to ask "why can't we all get along?" and "maybe we should hold a peace summit?" that continue to let the evil rule our streets. The evil will always be there, the question is will you fight back when it is tooth and nail? Will you be properly equipped and prepared when they bust down your door? Or are you gonna ask them to wait while you insure your FOID card isn't expired?

A firearm is an entirely simple concept to understand, even you can master it's use with very little practice. Although, the more practice the more prepared you could be when faced in an extremely bad situation.

So, take your neighborhood watch, call 911 and wait, anti-gun, police are "the only ones", BS crap somewhere else. It has been riddled to pieces by Publicola and many others.

You simply can't stand it that had a couple of members of that family been carrying a loaded firearm on their person or under their pillow those people might very well be alive right now.

You see, if you admit that, you might actually want to crawl out from under that rock you have been hiding under just to avoid the very simple fact that guns save lives and yes, there will always be evil people lurking the streets, (whether simple street-criminals or criminals with badges). The easier access to firearms and training the better for everyone, especially the innocent non-violent part of society. Which includes Publicola, the 9 and 11 year old killed, me, and likely even you.

Posted by: FishOrMan at June 22, 2006 09:57 PM

And How?

Whew! I waded through about 40% of the diatribe before I realized that the reason why I wasn't able to understand what this wahoo's point is ... is because he doesn't have a point. It's all just one great amorphous pile of merde. I quit reading after that.

I can't tell whether he wants people to be able to defend themselves against random home-invasions, or whether he thinks the whole concept of self-defense is too stressfull for the hoi poloi.

The only thing I CAN understand, Publicola, is that this dork is using your website to vent.

I hope he feels better now, had a cigarette and went to bed to sleep for a solid 12 hours.

Obviously, he has partaken of "a drink before".

I still haven't figured out how the "FOID Card" is suppose to magically make us competent in firearms handling, or how only the police or the military have access to sufficient training to allow us to defend ourselves with a firearm. I had the military training ... it was marginal at best. My guess is that "And How" has had neither, but he has a great deal of misplaced confidence in Government Programs.

Sad, really.

Note to "And How": if you really belive that you, personally, can't learn to be a competent firearms user without the help and permission of your government ... you're probably right.

I only hope you're not a public employee.

I really do.

Posted by: Jerry the Geek at July 14, 2006 12:21 AM
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